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Post by relenemiller on Mar 21, 2011 12:11:40 GMT -5
I dunnnoo folks.....we believers know how short the time is before the Lord's return......you would think that just maybe, even the most atheist individual would start asking if maybe there is something to this book called, "Revelation?"
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Post by mikekerstetter on Mar 21, 2011 15:23:06 GMT -5
Could be, But:
Matthew 24:36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark 13:32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
1 Thessalonians 5:22For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2 Peter 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
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Post by relenemiller on Mar 21, 2011 18:14:07 GMT -5
;)Mike, I don't believe I claimed to know the hour, because no man does as you state. However, there is no prophesy left in the Bible to fulfil, except His return. And, a study of Scriptures will reveal we are in the end times......not knowing the hour doesn't change the actuality of the event. I don't need to know the hour, I'm ready for the rapture. My burden is for those who believe they are ready. My son told me a preacher says there are three types of people in a congregation. One, the believers....two, the non-believers and three, the make-believers. Revelation speaks to the imminent return of Christ Jesus and the subsequent events now unfolding that will affect those left behind after the rapture. To see those events starting to become reality in the international scene is exciting. I've always thought that Revelation and the prophesy of Christ's second coming which is revealed throughout the OT and the NT should be witness itself to His Majesty. I for one am glad I am going to face Him as my Saviour rather than my judge. It's one thing to know Jesus....the question is....does He know you?
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Post by mikekerstetter on Mar 22, 2011 2:25:23 GMT -5
Didn't mean to imply that you said you knew the hour. I think signs pointing to the rapture have occurred throughout history. Does it seem that more things are happening in our lifetime? Yep, but it probably seemed that way to our ancestors also. To me it doesn't matter. There's no reason for me to live any different if it is or it isn't. I need to be striving to be closer to God all the time. You may very well be right, that this is the end times. I'm ready either way.
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Post by relenemiller on Mar 22, 2011 7:27:13 GMT -5
Mike, life as we know it as believers, whether it be socially, economically, politically, or most importantly.....spiritually is becoming more and more depraved by the day. Ultimately, while deprivation has been, as you infer, since the fall of man, Jesus did tell of signs to "watch ye therefore." I for one, took seriously the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. And, while there were many reasons they were totally destroyed, perhaps the one that stands out most is the sodomy (homosexuality). Today's validation and condoning of this abomination before God, along with the "hands that shed innocent blood" (abortion) is why I believe America will not go unscathed from persecution in the coming years. Why should America be any different than any other nation in history that incurred the wrath of God because of their disobedience and turning their backs on Him? Going through persecution and tribulation are two entirely different ages. Those signs, as I have suggested should bring attention to the credence of the authority of the Scriptures. Events unfolding now, look more to the tribulation, which you and I know, we won't be here for anyhow. This is an interesting read.
THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE
The word “rapture” does not appear in the Bible, but it is the term used to describe the catching away of the saints described in 1 Th. 4:13-18. The term “caught up” in 1 Th. 4:17 is also translated “pluck” (Jn. 10:28), “take by force” (Acts 23:10), and “pulling [out of the fire]” (Jude 23). It refers to a forceful seizing and a snatching away. It is used of the devil snatching the word of God from the heart of the foolish (Mt. 13:19) and of the Spirit of God snatching away Philip after the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:39). This is exactly what Christ will do to the New Testament believers before the onslaught of the Great Tribulation.
Notes on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:
1. The Rapture is (1) a resurrection of the dead in Christ (v. 14-16), (2) a catching up and translation of the living New Testament saints (v. 17). 2. The dead in Christ are with Him in heaven (v. 14). 3. The Rapture is the believer’s hope (v. 13). It is what we are looking forward to. 4. The Rapture is certain. (a) It is as sure as Christ’s resurrection (v. 14). (b) It is the word of the Lord (v. 15). 5. The Rapture is a comfort (v. 18). If this translation did not occur until the end of the torments of the Great Tribulation, it certainly would not produce solace for the Christian standing on this side of the Tribulation. 6. The Rapture is before the day of the Lord’s wrath (5:1-5, 9).
This event is also described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58.
1. The Rapture is a mystery that was not revealed in the Old Testament (v. 51). The Old Testament prophets taught about the resurrection, but they did not teach that some would be caught up without dying. The translation of the New Testament saints will involve an instantaneous change from morality to immortality. Those believers living at that hour will never see death.
2. The translation of the church-age saints is said to be a source of comfort and encouragement (1 Co. 15:58). Again, if this translation did not occur until the end of the torments of the Great Tribulation, it would not be a comfort.
Among those who believe in a literal Rapture of church-age saints, there are three general positions. All of these pertain to the timing of the Rapture in relation to the Great Tribulation. The three views are (1) Pre-tribulational, meaning the church-age saints will be raptured before the Great Tribulation. (2) Mid-tribulational (also called Pre-wrath Rapture), meaning the church-age saints will go through the first half of the Tribulation. (3) Post-tribulational, meaning the church-age saints will go through the entire Tribulation period.
THE EVIDENCE FOR THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE
For the following reasons we are convinced the Bible teaches a Pre-tribulational Rapture. In the following study, we are using the term “church” in a general, institutional sense:
1. CHURCH-AGE BELIEVERS ARE PROMISED SALVATION FROM WRATH (1 Th. 1:9-10; 5:1-9; Rom. 5:9; Rev. 3:10).
The Great Tribulation is expressly called the day of God’s wrath. Today the Lord is withholding His anger; He is seated upon a throne of grace, but the day approaches when He will take the seat of judgment. Then “the day of his wrath” will be upon all the world (Ps. 110:5; Isa. 13:6-13; Rev. 6:16-17). It is true that in every century, Bible-believing churches have been subjected to persecution, but this is quite different from the Great Tribulation. The general persecutions of the saints are caused by the wrath of wicked men and the devil, whereas the seven-year Tribulation is a period especially pertaining to God’s wrath (Rev. 6:16-17; 14:10). Some feel that the church will not be saved out of the time of wrath, but will be saved through it. This cannot be true, since the Bible clearly reveals that those who are on earth during the Great Tribulation will not be delivered from wrath but will be overcome (Rev. 13:7). The Scriptures that promise church-age believers deliverance from wrath must refer to salvation out from the very presence of the wrath. Concerning the Great Tribulation, we are told that “as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth” (Lk. 21:35). Therefore, church-age believers must either be physically removed from the earth, or they will be involved in the day of wrath. God promises removal. “... I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev. 3:10). This verse does not say that God will keep the church age saints through the temptation but from it.
2. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TO BE REMOVED BEFORE THE TRIBULATION (2 Th. 2:1-8).
In other passages of the Bible, the Holy Spirit is said to be the restrainer of sin (Ge. 6:3; Is. 59:19). The Holy Spirit came into the world in His present dispensation at Pentecost (Acts 2), when He came to empower the church for the Great Commission (Acts 1:8). He will remove the church-age believers before the time of God’s great wrath. This does not mean the Holy Spirit will not be present in the world at that time. He is God and is omnipresent. It means that He will not be present in the same sense that He is in this age.
3. CHURCH-AGE BELIEVERS ARE PROMISED MANSIONS IN HEAVEN (Jn. 14:1-3).
When the Lord Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the Tribulation, He sets up His Messianic kingdom. If the Rapture occurred at the end of the Tribulation, the promise to church-age believers pertaining to Heaven would not be fulfilled. Church-age believers are a heavenly people with a heavenly hope (Eph. 1; Ph. 3:20; Col. 3:1-3). Some dispensationalists teach that the church-age saints will live in heaven during the millennium. I believe they will live both in heaven and in earth. Jesus promised the apostles that they would reign with Him over Israel (Matt. 19:28).
4. THE TRANSLATION OF CHURCH-AGE SAINTS IS SAID TO BE IMMINENT (meaning that it could happen any moment) (Matt. 24:42, 44; 25:13; Mk. 13:33), whereas the Second Coming is said to be preceded by specific signs (1 Th. 1:9-10; Tit. 2:12-13; Jam. 5:8,9; 1 Jn. 2:28; Rev. 1:3).
The apostle Paul instructed the church at Thessalonica that they did not need to heed signs and times, because the New Testament believer has been promised redemption from the “day of darkness” which shall overcome the whole world (1 Th. 5:1-9). The church is waiting, not for the appearing of the Antichrist, but for the redemption of the Son of God.
5. THE CHURCH IS A MYSTERY UNREVEALED IN THE Old TESTAMENT (Eph. 3:1-11).
The New Testament church has no part in the chronology of events foretold by the Old Testament prophets. They clearly foretold the first coming of Christ, His miraculous birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension. The same prophets described Christ’s Second Coming in glory, preceded by a time of unprecedented worldwide tribulation, and followed by the establishment of the glorious Messianic kingdom centered in Jerusalem. But these prophets did not see the present church age--“which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit” (Eph. 3:5).
Between the first and second coming, there is a time gap that was not seen by the Old Testament prophets. This gap is the church age. The prophets did not see that Israel would be set aside temporarily while God called out from among all nations a special body of people. After He has accomplished this purpose and the fullness of the Gentiles is come in, God will restart Israel’s prophetic clock and will fulfill all Old Testament prophecies in relation to His ancient chosen nation. “... blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in” (Rom. 11:25).
The Great Tribulation deals with Israel, not with church-age believers. This present mystery period will end with the removal of the church-age believers from the earth; and the Lord will then take up His plan for the nation Israel as He fulfills the Old Testament prophecies of the time of Jacob’s trouble, the coming of Messiah in glory, the regathering of the remnant, and the establishment of the Messianic kingdom.
6. THERE ARE EVENTS INTERVENING BETWEEN THE TRANSLATION AND RESURRECTION OF THE CHURCH AND THE SECOND ADVENT.
According to 1 Cor. 15:51, EVERY saved person will be translated at the Rapture. Yet Mat. 25:31-46 shows that when Jesus returns to the earth at the Second Advent He will find many true believers in their natural bodies. There must, then, be a period of time between the Rapture of the church-age saints and the Second Coming to allow for these folk to be saved. It is reasonable to believe that this period is the seven years of the Great Tribulation.
7. THE BOOK OF REVELATION SHOWS THAT THE CHURCH IS NOT ON EARTH DURING THE TRIBULATION.
(a) The church is not seen on earth in chapters 4-18.
(b) The witness for God in the earth during the Tribulation is Israel, not the church (Rev. 7).
(c) The prayers of the saints in Revelation 8 are prayers for judgment. Only Israel prayed such prayers. The church-age saints are instructed to pray for her enemies, not against them (Lk. 9:51-56). These prayers of Revelation are those of the Psalms and are based on God’s promise to Abraham to curse those that cursed Israel (Gen. 12:1-3).
(d) The scorpion-like creatures of Revelation 9 are given freedom to hurt all earth-dwellers except those Jews who were sealed by the angel of Revelation 7; if church-age believers were on earth, they would be subject to this horrible judgment of God.
(e) Revelation 10 identifies the events of Revelation 4-18 with those foretold by Old Testament prophets--the days of the Great Tribulation, the “day of the Lord.” The church age was never in the view of these Old Testament prophecies; it was an unrevealed mystery. The church has a different purpose and program than national Israel. It is Israel that is in view in Old Testament prophecy and in Revelation 4-18.
(f) The ministry of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 identifies them with national Israel and with Old Testament prophecies of the “day of the Lord.” The two witnesses minister from Jerusalem, Israel’s capital. The churches have no such capital, her hope being heavenly, not earthly (Col. 3:1-4; Phil. 3:17-21). The two witnesses are clothed in sackcloth, typical of Old Testament Israel, not New Testament believers. Nowhere are the churches seen in sackcloth. They are told, rather, to “rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice” (Phil. 4:4). The church-age believer’s judgment is forever past, and he is to keep his mind centered in the heavenlies where, in position, he is seated eternally victorious with Christ (Eph. 2:5-10). Revelation 11:4 identifies the two witnesses with Old Testament prophecy. Zech. 4:3, 11, 14 is a prophecy of Israel, not the church. Further, the two witnesses call down judgment upon their enemies in Rev. 10:5-6. Jesus rebuked his disciples for desiring to do just this and instructed the church-age believer to pray for the well-being of his enemies, not for their destruction (Lk. 9:54-56; Rom. 12:14, 17-21).
(g) The devil persecutes Israel, not the church, during the Tribulation (Rev. 12). There can be no doubt that the woman in this chapter is identified as national Israel. Verse 5 shows the woman bringing forth Christ; it is obvious that Jesus was brought forth by Israel, not by the churches (Isa. 9:6-7; Rom. 9:5). Also, the symbols of Rev. 12:1-2 recall familiar Old Testament typology of Israel. She is referred to as a woman (Isa. 54:5-7). The sun and moon and the 12 stars of verse 2 remind us of Joseph’s dream regarding Israel (Gen. 37:9). The words of Rev. 12:2 are almost an exact quote from Micah 5:3, again referencing Israel’s delivery of the Messiah. These symbols are not used in the New Testament of the churches.
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