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Post by relenemiller on Mar 3, 2011 14:32:30 GMT -5
Mike, this is way off topic.......but I heard a message on that verse one time, which drastically changed how I viewed that verse as it was taught to me growing up. The words, "in the way that he should go" and the preacher emphasized that phrase. For example, many parents want (note I say parents want) their child in sports.....but perhaps the child has no inclination towards sports (or the opposite - the arts). I found the message enlightening. The preacher spoke to knowing the heartbeat of our child....knowing our child and his/her interests. Eight years old is not too early to seek his heartbeat. Just for what it's worth. BTW, clearly, you and I know the essence of the training a child in the Scriptures, but if you look at the verse (KJV) as it is spoken.....it doesn't tell us as parents to train him/her in the Word, in the way he should go. Sorry for being off topic!
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Post by Doug Loss on Mar 8, 2011 6:12:36 GMT -5
For Mike; Dr. Sowell is about the clearest thinker around. You can learn something from him. Union Myths By Thomas Sowell www.JewishWorldReview.com | The biggest myth about labor unions is that unions are for the workers. Unions are for unions, just as corporations are for corporations and politicians are for politicians. Nothing shows the utter cynicism of the unions and the politicians who do their bidding like the so-called "Employee Free Choice Act" that the Obama administration tried to push through Congress. Employees' free choice as to whether or not to join a union is precisely what that legislation would destroy. Workers already have a free choice in secret-ballot elections conducted under existing laws. As more and more workers in the private sector have voted to reject having a union represent them, the unions' answer has been to take away secret-ballot elections. Under the "Employee Free Choice Act," unions would not have to win in secret-ballot elections in order to represent the workers. Instead, union representatives could simply collect signatures from the workers until they had a majority. Why do we have secret ballots in the first place, whether in elections for unions or elections for government officials? To prevent intimidation and allow people to vote how they want to, without fear of retaliation. This is a crucial right that unions want to take away from workers. The actions of union mobs in Wisconsin, Ohio and elsewhere give us a free home demonstration of how little they respect the rights of those who disagree with them and how much they rely on harassment and threats to get what they want. It takes world-class chutzpah to call circumventing secret ballots the "Employee Free Choice Act." To unions, workers are just the raw material used to create union power, just as iron ore is the raw material used by U.S. Steel and bauxite is the raw material used by the Aluminum Company of America. The most fundamental fact about labor unions is that they do not create any wealth. They are one of a growing number of institutions which specialize in siphoning off wealth created by others, whether those others are businesses or the taxpayers. There are limits to how long unions can siphon off money from businesses, without facing serious economic repercussions. The most famous labor union leader, the legendary John L. Lewis, head of the United Mine Workers from 1920 to 1960, secured rising wages and job benefits for the coal miners, far beyond what they could have gotten out of a free market based on supply and demand. But there is no free lunch. An economist at the University of Chicago called John L. Lewis "the world's greatest oil salesman." His strikes that interrupted the supply of coal, as well as the resulting wage increases that raised its price, caused many individuals and businesses to switch from using coal to using oil, leading to reduced employment of coal miners. The higher wage rates also led coal companies to replace many miners with machines. The net result was a huge decline in employment in the coal mining industry, leaving many mining towns virtually ghost towns by the 1960s. There is no free lunch. Similar things happened in the unionized steel industry and in the unionized automobile industry. At one time, U.S. Steel was the largest steel producer in the world and General Motors the largest automobile manufacturer. No more. Their unions were riding high in their heyday, but they too discovered that there is no free lunch, as their members lost jobs by the hundreds of thousands. Workers have also learned that there is no free lunch, which is why they have, over the years, increasingly voted against being represented by unions in secret ballot elections. One set of workers, however, remained largely immune to such repercussions. These are government workers represented by public sector unions. While oil could replace coal, while U.S. Steel dropped from number one in the world to number ten, and Toyota could replace General Motors as the world's leading producer of cars, government is a monopoly. Nobody is likely to replace the federal or state bureaucracies, no matter how much money the unions drain from the taxpayers. That is why government unions continue to thrive while private sector unions decline. Taxpayers provide their free lunch.
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Post by Ritty77 on Mar 8, 2011 17:32:38 GMT -5
Great article, Doug. We can all learn from Sowell's writings.
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Post by mikekerstetter on Mar 8, 2011 17:45:24 GMT -5
Yeah, and on top of living wages, those poor coal barons wouldn't have to worry about those pesky and costly regulations to curb black lung, mine collapse, explosions, and other safety regulations. Those damn Unions ruined it all. If it weren't for them we could still be working 18 hours a day for less than a dollar just like the third world countries. What were they thinking???
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Post by Doug Loss on Mar 8, 2011 18:59:28 GMT -5
You just absolutely refuse to get it, don't you?
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Post by twinder on Mar 8, 2011 22:33:56 GMT -5
When did the US or any state government own and/or operate a coal mine?
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Post by mikekerstetter on Mar 9, 2011 4:13:01 GMT -5
You just absolutely refuse to get it, don't you?
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Post by mikekerstetter on Mar 9, 2011 4:37:27 GMT -5
When did the US or any state government own and/or operate a coal mine? I don't know, ask the writer of the article Doug thought was so great. In the article the writer, in a nut shell, blames the current oil and gas prices on the original coal miners union because they demanded, and received, higher wages, and, more importantly, better, safer working conditions. It's quite a stretch. Ridiculous actually.
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Post by Doug Loss on Mar 9, 2011 5:01:59 GMT -5
The writer of the article is one of the most brilliant economists in the business, Mike. Sorry, but your claim of ridiculousness is itself ridiculous.
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Post by mikekerstetter on Mar 9, 2011 7:16:22 GMT -5
www.sungazette.com/page/blogs.detail/display/795/Madison-visitor-Herman-Cain-gets-an-answer.htmlMadison visitor Herman Cain gets an answer The Intersection February 22, 2011 - Mike Maneval After several days of protests brought out supporters of teachers and prison guards to rally against Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's plan to restrict collective bargaining rights for many public-sector workers, opponents counter-rallied over the weekend. Former Godfather's Pizza CEO Herman Cain, the Associated Press reported, delivered some remarks, claiming the attack on public-sector workers is necessary because Wisconsin is broke and asking Americans who believe respect for hard work means more than just waxing philosophically about work but actually compensating workers for their time and efforts, "What part of 'broke' don't you understand?" The part of Wisconsin being "broke" I don't understand is how a "broke" state can spend $25 million on an "economic development fund," another $48 million to launch a private health savings accounts boondoggle, and - to top it all off - another $67 million in tax breaks the state's fiscal bureau predicts will have neglible effect on hiring and job creation. I have a hard time reconciling claims Wisconsin is too "broke" to pay the compensation for work it contractually obligated itself to pay with the list of grants available to Wisconsin's businesses for "disadvantaged entrepreneurs," expansion and relocation, "clean air assistance," local arts and crafts fairs, and many more. The University of Wisconsin's library system maintains the list of offices and agencies, and I haven't heard of any intention by the Walker administration to cut a single one. Less than three months ago, when Walker took office as governor, Wisconsin had a projected budget surplus. Since that time, as Talking Points Memo's Brian Beutler observed on Thursday, Walker's administration has taken NONE of the steps that actually produce immediate or near-immediate cost reductions, such as furloughs or service rollbacks. So light of all this information, I find it a great mystery how anyone could "understand" Wisconsin is "broke" - anyone who doesn't have an ingrained bias against the Americans on payroll who built this country, that is.
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Post by mikekerstetter on Mar 9, 2011 14:00:10 GMT -5
The writer of the article is one of the most brilliant economists in the business, Mike. Sorry, but your claim of ridiculousness is itself ridiculous. If you consider brilliant the ability to ignore the deplorable safety hazards, working conditions and low pay that the labor unions overcame, then I guess this guy is a genius. I guess he also thinks we would be driving coal powered cars if the unions hadn't driven us to oil. Yep, he's a genius alright.
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Post by Doug Loss on Mar 9, 2011 14:08:16 GMT -5
Don't worry Mike, no one will mistake your disdain for reasoned opposition. Your lack of understanding for the truths Dr. Sowell regularly presents surprises no one.
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Post by mikekerstetter on Mar 9, 2011 15:56:16 GMT -5
Don't worry Mike, no one will mistake your disdain for reasoned opposition. Nor yours, Doug.
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Post by philunderwood on Mar 9, 2011 16:09:07 GMT -5
What isn’t considered in these early union arguments is the conditions these workers lived under prior to the industrial revolution. Those “horrible” working conditions looked pretty good compared to barely existing on subsistence farms while fighting off Indians or barely scraping by as the village blacksmith, broom maker or whatever.
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Post by twinder on Mar 9, 2011 17:16:40 GMT -5
I'm not so sure who is worse, Mike or Chuck. Can't anyone comprehend what they read anymore?
Sowell is saying that the greed of the unions is what caused those once great, thriving, industries to become but a fraction of what they once were in this Country. How can you not understand what he is saying. Comparing public and private sector unions to each other is ridiculous. The government can't be compared to a private business such as coal, oil, or steel.
Try taking your union blinders off for a minute to comprehend what someone has written.
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Post by mikekerstetter on Mar 9, 2011 19:10:10 GMT -5
Try taking your union blinders off for a minute to comprehend what someone has written. Take the union hater goggles off and you will see that he also blamed the coal miners union for our current oil/gas price situation.
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Post by twinder on Mar 9, 2011 19:52:11 GMT -5
Try taking your union blinders off for a minute to comprehend what someone has written. Take the union hater goggles off and you will see that he also blamed the coal miners union for our current oil/gas price situation. An economist at the University of Chicago called John L. Lewis "the world's greatest oil salesman."
His strikes that interrupted the supply of coal, as well as the resulting wage increases that raised its price, caused many individuals and businesses to switch from using coal to using oil, leading to reduced employment of coal miners. The higher wage rates also led coal companies to replace many miners with machines.
Nowhere in this piece does Sowell blame the miner's unions for "our current oil/gas price situation" as you are claiming. Once again, take a reading comprehension class, Mike. You're reading things that just aren't there.
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Post by Ritty77 on Mar 9, 2011 22:26:33 GMT -5
They passed the bill basically intact. Apparently the "fiscal" part of the bill was deemed not "appropriations" and not subject to a quorum. That's what I'm reading, but they did for sure pass the non-fiscal part. Here is the reaction, live: www.breitbart.tv/live-stream-mayhem-in-madison/
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Post by mikekerstetter on Mar 10, 2011 5:17:01 GMT -5
themoderatevoice.com/103392/wisconsin-republicans-invent-new-illegal-way-of-passing-a-bill-without-a-quorum-and-without-debate/Wisconsin Republicans Invent New (Illegal) Way of Passing a Bill without A Quorum and Without Debate Posted by DR. CLARISSA PINKOLA ESTÉS, Managing Editor of TMV, and Columnist in Economy, Law, Media, Politics, Society. Mar 10th, 2011 MADISON, Wisconsin Republicans without quorum and without debate seem to have invented a way to pass a bill without most of the Congress present. After weeks of huge demonstrations, after threats of various kinds from the Governor… and a back and forth with lots of talking heads to the point of not knowing which side was speaking any longer… and after Dems leaving the state until a compromise that was real could be hammered out… after all this… and more the Rebubs convened a conference committee today, apparently in violation of ‘daylight’ laws about giving public notice and open meetings — these required by State rule of law. Therein, the Repubs passed their union-liquefaction bill that carries its original core with, it seems, a few decorative frostings moved around. Those who ‘auto-passed their own bill without debate’ refused to say publicly what specifically had been removed from bill, added, or rearranged. In the Repub non-open ‘meeting,’ and outside the meeting, many protested the Repubs vocal toots of Aye, aye, aye in the final vote… which seriously made the British House of Commons look like a date with a nice dowager. The ‘conference committee’ meeting that gave no 24 hour notice as required by law, refused to respond to any requests, demands, assertions for the law to be followed… Thus ended the Repubs illegal meeting, even as a Democratic Assembly leader who protested the illegality of the meeting was shouted down. The Repubs then were said to literally have run to convene the Wisc. Senate, so they could ram the rest of their auto-bill through… also without notice, also without all legal perameters in line. Outside, protesters reassembled in larger and larger numbers tonight. And enraging the young may be a stunningly bad move by the Repubs: shooting the entire party in both (all) feet, nationwide. The young have a grapevine and a FLASH action call network that older politicians envy in spades, and could never HOPE to grasp let alone control. The young are mobile in more ways than one the way many others are not. Bad move raising the vortex of the young. Incredibly reckless move with no forethought about outcome, entirely. Lou Dobbs idea that the middle class is being warred upon, looks like it has come true in Madison today. I think one can argue about who did what. As usual. Yet, the red arrows point to this one being properly settled in two ways regardless of how other stories unfold around this: One, by far cooler heads: The Courts. Chances are cooler heads will nonetheless, cause some heads to roll… perhaps the heads of those who decided to hold an illegal meeting and invent a new legislative way of passing laws. Two: It would appear that grandstanding before cameras was actually more the point in all this pointless dribble of time and resource during this ‘irregular meeting’. One might think this was not even to please Wisconsonite corporate kings, but rather to try to be the ‘first kings of Congress’ across the country, trying to claim Union Busters R Us while actually looking like on TV, a trammel of uncivilized ninnies. It’s one thing to claim you’re going up against Goliath. But there is no honor in going up against the air; when the Goliath isnt even present. This much seems likely. The folks back home, many of whom are working class people, not corporate bosses, will also have their say. Either now or not that far down the road. Votes are a terrible thing to waste.
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Post by Doug Loss on Mar 10, 2011 6:50:54 GMT -5
"Moderate" is of course often just another term leftists use to try to hide their true beliefs. "The Moderate Voice" curiously seems to slam folks on the right continuously while never having a bad word to say about the left. Could they be...leftists? Duh!
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